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You are here: Home --> Forum Home --> Brewing Forum --> Brewing Discussion --> I have krausen!

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rayfound
Charter Member
Riverside, CA
313 Posts


OK, so my $.02 on "Quick Lager" is:

#1 - From a fermentation perspective, it seems obviously functional, does not appear to cause any off flavors, etc... 
#2 - from a lagering perspective - You have to look back and see WHY these beers were lagered for such a time. Necessity and tradition of the times seems to be the most obvious reasons. They couldn't brew year round. 
#3 - with the ability to "lager" at 30F thanks to modern refrigeration, the cold storage benefits happen much more quickly. I am of the belief that this is MOSTLY clarification, and that it DOES have a flavor benefit. (My opinions: most of the flavors associated with "young" beer are the result of yeast in suspension. namely the harsher bitterness and Green flavors are largely the result of hop material stuck to yeast in suspension, and the yeast themselves)
#4 - Gelatin = Powdered time. Gelatin, the best I can tell, does everything that extended cold-storage does, only about 10% the time required. Everything except losing freshness. 
#5 - many really enjoyable flavors are best enjoyed fresh. Hop aroma obviously, but I also find a certain grainy flavor, strongest in Pilsner Malt, is something that fades fairly quickly and is REALLY enjoyable fresh. Hence my general support for people to drink their Belgian Tripels FRESH. Bigger/Darker beers do tend to benefit some from some of the aging reactions, or at least don't seem to have those delicate fresh flavors to begin with, so they don't suffer from their loss. 


So I don't even think of the "Quick Lager" method as anything special. I think of it as just "Brewing" and the "traditional lager method", to me, is more like "Old timey nostalgia brewing for people who like appeals to antiquity(who probably also do decoctions)".


 




Posted 34 days ago.

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


Great summary, Ray.  Except for the blasphemy about decoctions...

On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 10:41 AM, rayfound <listpost@homebrewdad.com> wrote:
OK, so my $.02 on "Quick Lager" is:

#1 - From a fermentation perspective, it seems obviously functional, does not appear to cause any off flavors, etc... 
#2 - from a lagering perspective - You have to look back and see WHY these beers were lagered for such a time. Necessity and tradition of the times seems to be the most obvious reasons. They couldn't brew year round. 
#3 - with the ability to "lager" at 30F thanks to modern refrigeration, the cold storage benefits happen much more quickly. I am of the belief that this is MOSTLY clarification, and that it DOES have a flavor benefit. (My opinions: most of the flavors associated with "young" beer are the result of yeast in suspension. namely the harsher bitterness and Green flavors are largely the result of hop material stuck to yeast in suspension, and the yeast themselves)
#4 - Gelatin = Powdered time. Gelatin, the best I can t!
ell, does everything that extended cold-storage does, only about 10% the time required. Everything except losing freshness. 
#5 - many really enjoyable flavors are best enjoyed fresh. Hop aroma obviously, but I also find a certain grainy flavor, strongest in Pilsner Malt, is something that fades fairly quickly and is REALLY enjoyable fresh. Hence my general support for people to drink their Belgian Tripels FRESH. Bigger/Darker beers do tend to benefit some from some of the aging reactions, or at least don't seem to have those delicate fresh flavors to begin with, so they don't suffer from their loss. 


So I don't even think of the "Quick Lager" method as anything special. I think of it as just "Brewing" and the "traditional lager method", to me, is more like "Old timey nostalgia brewing for people who like appeals to antiquity(who probably also do decoctions)".

 









Posted 34 days ago.

vinpaysdoc
Charter Member
High Point, NC
321 Posts


 "Old timey nostalgia brewing for people who like appeals to antiquity(who probably also do decoctions)".


You forgot "and those that are stuck in their ways.......i.e. - unwilling to take on challenges......"

;-)





Posted 34 days ago.

KidMoxie
Charter Member
San Elijo Hills, CA
405 Posts


Many harsh tannins and phenols (from hops, grain, etc) naturally precipitate over time, this is what's happening during lagering. Lower temps speed this up and finings like gelatin cause differently charged ions to bind together and precipitate even faster. All of this will eventually happen even at room temp, but other reactions like staling will be happening concurrently.

On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 8:41 AM, rayfound <listpost@homebrewdad.com> wrote:
OK, so my $.02 on "Quick Lager" is:

#1 - From a fermentation perspective, it seems obviously functional, does not appear to cause any off flavors, etc... 
#2 - from a lagering perspective - You have to look back and see WHY these beers were lagered for such a time. Necessity and tradition of the times seems to be the most obvious reasons. They couldn't brew year round. 
#3 - with the ability to "lager" at 30F thanks to modern refrigeration, the cold storage benefits happen much more quickly. I am of the belief that this is MOSTLY clarification, and that it DOES have a flavor benefit. (My opinions: most of the flavors associated with "young" beer are the result of yeast in suspension. namely the harsher bitterness and Green flavors are largely the result of hop material stuck to yeast in suspension, and the yeast themselves)
#4 - Gelatin = Powdered time. Gelatin, the best I can t!
ell, does everything that extended cold-storage does, only about 10% the time required. Everything except losing freshness. 
#5 - many really enjoyable flavors are best enjoyed fresh. Hop aroma obviously, but I also find a certain grainy flavor, strongest in Pilsner Malt, is something that fades fairly quickly and is REALLY enjoyable fresh. Hence my general support for people to drink their Belgian Tripels FRESH. Bigger/Darker beers do tend to benefit some from some of the aging reactions, or at least don't seem to have those delicate fresh flavors to begin with, so they don't suffer from their loss. 


So I don't even think of the "Quick Lager" method as anything special. I think of it as just "Brewing" and the "traditional lager method", to me, is more like "Old timey nostalgia brewing for people who like appeals to antiquity(who probably also do decoctions)".

 









Posted 34 days ago.

rayfound
Charter Member
Riverside, CA
313 Posts


>Also, I haven't used a blowoff tube in at least two years. Aluminum foil and a few drops of Fermcap are what I do for the first couple days of fermentation.

I don't understand this at all. I have tried the fermcap thing, and the yeast spit that shit out at me. They even said "the fuck is this shit? You expect us to act all calm and stay in the carboy because you gave us some baby gas drops? Get this shit out of here". 

I get blowoff on nearly every batch. I assume part of it is that I use the 6Gal PET carboys, and to leave undisturbed trub, and still package as close to 5G as possible, I have to fill it overly full. I really wish they made a 7G PET carboy. (no I don't wan't an opaque speidel, but thanks for asking). Hell, with a large dryhop charge, it is a major challenge to get 5 gallons into the keg, 4.5 is a victory. 

I get blowoff on WLP029 at 58F... https://i.imgur.com/y4Rk7Ps.jpg - how you non-blowoff people ever do it, I will never understand. I could count on one hand the number of batches I have ever made that didn't have some blowoff. 




Posted 34 days ago.

Necropaw
Charter Member
Central WI
608 Posts


Yeah, my BB's I always have issues with.  always.

Buckets ive had issues with, but typically not.






Posted 34 days ago.

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


Ray, I think that your issues come from not living right.  :P




Posted 34 days ago.

testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


Well, you have what, like less than .5 gallons of headspace in those carboys?

For me it's all yeast dependent. I try to avoid a blowoff if at all possible because I hate dealing with them, so I avoid overly krausen-y strains like 001. I still end up with blowoff sometimes. I never use fermcap.




Posted 34 days ago.

testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


WAIT! Let's play, guess the next XBMT!

CF? I'm guessing "counter-flow" is this a chilling xbmt?




Posted 34 days ago.

KidMoxie
Charter Member
San Elijo Hills, CA
405 Posts


The secret with the Fermcap is to wait a few hours after pitching before you add it so that yeast activity keeps it suspended. Otherwise, it can sink to the bottom and get buried in the trub. I usually pitch mid-afternoon and then add the Fermcap 6-8 hours later before I go to bed.

The closest I've gotten to blowout lately is using a super top-cropping English strain that sliiiiiightly lifted the foil about a mm. I added a couple more drops of Fermcap and it sunk back down.




Posted 34 days ago.

testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


Another option is Clarity Ferm. Now I'm not sure.




Posted 34 days ago.

KidMoxie
Charter Member
San Elijo Hills, CA
405 Posts


Centennial: Favorite!?




Posted 34 days ago.

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


lol




Posted 34 days ago.

testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


LOL




Posted 34 days ago.

rayfound
Charter Member
Riverside, CA
313 Posts


Hint: https://instagram.com/p/40vuSgp_Ky/?taken-by=rayfound

You're all disqualified from the tasting panel. 




Posted 34 days ago.

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