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You are here: Home --> Forum Home --> Brewing Forum --> Brewing Discussion --> Carapils vs Crystal malt

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testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/blog/understanding-carapils/

This has always seemed fishy to me. I'm supposed to believe that fully converted and slightly caramelized malt is supposed to be much more ferementable than fully converted, but presumably at higher temp, and non caramelized malt?

Even if that's the case, which I suppose could be, I'm supposed to believe that the enzymes in the mash completely ignore the long chain saccharides in the carapils while they don't in the base malt I'm using? If so, why is that the case.

I'm not trying to say that Carapils is worthless or anything, just that I don't understand how it works, so I'm very hesitant to use it. Munching on it, it tastes quite different to the average malt or crystal malt, so I'm sure there's something different about it. I've always been curious to do a side by side with a beer with 3% carapils and one without or 3% carapils vs. 3% C10.

Anyone else have thoughts on carapils?




Posted 34 days ago.

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


I've used it here and there for head formation/retention, but my "go to" for this purpose is flaked barley. That said, I'm getting more and more into the idea of using nothing, as I seem to be getting good head with no help in my last few beers.




Posted 34 days ago.

testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


They hint that carapils has higher protein content, so I wonder if it's not more akin to flaked barley than crystal malt in what it provides to the finished beer.




Posted 34 days ago.

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


I had figured the head stuff was related to protein content.




Posted 34 days ago.

chino_brews
Charter Member
Eden Prairie, MN
301 Posts


From Ashton Lewis:

Maltsters who produce these types of malts are protective of their
processes, but if I had to wager a bet I would guess that the stewing
process is carried out at the upper end of alpha-amylase's temperature
range in an effort to minimize the activity of beta-amylase. These
conditions would favor the production of dextrins and minimize the
production of maltose, which of course is fermentable<br><br>
 

After the conversion rest, the malt is kiln-dried and roasted to
promote the Maillard reaction. This is a reaction involving so-called
reducing sugars and amino acids. The reducing sugar involved in the
reaction can be the monosaccharide glucose, or it can be the one end of a
dextrin polymer that is described as the reducing end. Although starch
and dextrins in malt will be converted to fermentable sugars in the
mashing process, carbohydrates that participate in the Maillard reaction
yield compounds that are not converted to fermentable sugars during
mashing. Dextrin malt has very little color, so the process must be
controlled to limit color development. The malting and stewing
conditions and the kilning and roasting profile are critical to
minimizing color and flavor development. Under-modified malts are
probably used for dextrin malts to limit protein breakdown during
malting. The result of the process is a type of crystal malt containing
Maillard reaction products (MRPs) with very little color or flavor.
Source: byo.com/mead/item/2966-dextrin-malts-...

TL;DR:
The green malt is stewed at a temperature to encourage  alpha-amylase
reactions and discourage beta-amylase reactions, and then when the dextrins
undergo Maillard Reactions during kiln-off (low enough not to impart
color, though) they undergo chemical transformation that makes them unavailable to diastase in your homebrew mash.




Posted 34 days ago.
Edited 34 days ago by chino_brews

Necropaw
Charter Member
Central WI
608 Posts


I was resisting on the spaghetti comment >.>;




Posted 34 days ago.

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


Silly me was hoping you guys would somehow resist...




Posted 34 days ago.

Necropaw
Charter Member
Central WI
608 Posts


Hey, *I* did!




Posted 34 days ago.

KidMoxie
Charter Member
San Elijo Hills, CA
405 Posts


Hey Olan, you ever consider mashing in some spaghetti? That'd get your wife interested for sure!




Posted 34 days ago.

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


Quit derailing Dan's topic.




Posted 34 days ago.

testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


No, no, go on!




Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


@Olan - dude less than half of my email responses make it here...

Lol @ spaghetti… poor Olan.

Interestingly, I took a recent BoPils brew (I don’t decoct – and again, sorry Olan), that had a 4 ounce addition of CaraPils and a touch of Melanoiden in a 10# batch. Step mashed 148F/160F/168F. The rest was Best Malz Heidelberg Malt. All Saaz with a significant late addition. Took this into my favorite local brewery (The ABGB) and immediately both brewers looked me right in the eye and said to skip the CaraPils. They could taste it immediately. So I chucked it out. Taste it next to some light continental pils - it tastes weird, slight metallic flavor.

According to them, the step mashing is the key element. You should only taste the pilsner malt, some light melanoiden from an extended boil, and lots of soft sazz-y goodness. Ferment cold and extend the d-rest by a few days (they come up to D-rest at 68F for 3 days or until they hit stable FG). They hard crash to 32F and condition for about a week or until the jungbucket flavors have dropped – carb and serve.

I HAD been using between 4-8 ounces before that – now I don’t use it at all.




Posted 34 days ago.

rayfound
Charter Member
Riverside, CA
313 Posts


I stopped using it altogether and honestly don't think head retention changed much. I get good head on beers where you'd expect it.

My kolsch used d it from the love2brew kit and head was normal, as expected for style, but no way more or better than my beers without it.





Posted 34 days ago.

KidMoxie
Charter Member
San Elijo Hills, CA
405 Posts


I like to use ~2.5% (usually 4 oz) in my batches that otherwise don't have any head-enhancing malts. My last couple beers have head for days, so I'll likely keep using it.




Posted 34 days ago.

ingoogni
nl
314 Posts


It's strange stuff, so the kernel has a lot of dextrins, what prevents the enzymes from the other malts in the grist to break those down?

It is a malt typically targetet at large scale production where everything is tuned in to one mashing scheme, so for more body you need a special malt. IMO there is very little use for it in home brewing as we can adjust our mashing regime easily.

If there are head retention problems one should evaluate the process and see where it goes wrong, or clean the glasses better.




Posted 34 days ago.

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