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Hey guys,
So I've been looking at water chemistry quite a bit lately.. to the point that I decided to donate and get the upgraded Bru'n water spreadsheet.. (Woo!)
I was able to stop by the LHBS and picked up some ingredients to brew my Kolsch recipe this weekend.. and I'd like to apply what I have learned about water chemistry to this batch..
I plugged everything into my mash acidification page to mash with 3 gallons of water.. which gives me a pH of 5.59.. I would like this to come down, since the "Brewing Knowledge" page says lighter colored beers should be between 5.3 and 5.4..
I then plugged in my water additions to bring me to a water profile for "Yellow Balanced", adding (Gypsum, Epsom Salt, Calcium Chloride).. this helped my mash pH quite a bit, bringing it down to 5.45..
When I look at the RA chart, I can see my red dot is within the Dussel-dorf range of Hardness, and between -40 and -60 of Alkalinity which looks pretty good.. and on my water adjustment page, I can see the Cations/Anions boxes almost perfectly match up (they are both green).. I know this has something to do with RA, as the Cations refer to your hardness and your Anions refer to your Alkalinity/Bicarbonate..
This brings me to my question.. I am sitting at a pH of 5.45 which is close to my target pH.. I can reduce my Mash water volume to get it closer, or add Lactic acid.. adding Lactic acid lowers the Anion's/bicarbonate, which can be seen on my RA chart.. the trade off is a mash pH closer to my target, with a less desireable Anion/Bicarbonate level..
Is it worth adding the Lactic acid? or should I just roll with the mineral additions, and be .05 higher pH than desired? What is the trade-off in regards to taste?
Posted 34 days ago.
Why are you using Epsom?
>When I look at the RA chart, I can see my red dot is within the Dussel-dorf range of Hardness, and between -40 and -60 of Alkalinity which looks pretty good.. and on my water adjustment page, I can see the Cations/Anions boxes almost perfectly match up (they are both green).. I know this has something to do with RA, as the Cations refer to your hardness and your Anions refer to your Alkalinity/Bicarbonate..
Forget historic/geographic profiles. Worry about Ca, pH, and SO4:Cl ratio. Don't stress anything else at this point.
>Is it worth adding the Lactic acid?
Mash first and measure your pH. If you are sitting at ~5.4, you're fine. Keep in mind, if your meter measures to the hundredth range, it's really only accurate to the tenths range. Round the hundredth up or down depending on the figure. THAT'S your pH. No homebrewer should be concerned with getting pH accurate to two decimal places.
Posted 34 days ago.
>Why are you using Epsom?
I don't have Magnesium Chloride.. I added Epsom to bring my magnesium level to the desired water profile, and balance the Sulfate level with Gypsum.. from what I can tell it worked really well, my Magnesium and Sulfate perfectly matches the profile.. but please let me know if there's something I'm not thinking of when using Epsom..
The calcium is slightly too high, and the chloride is slightly too low (were talking 2 ppm both ways).. but they are really close, and messing with Calcium Chloride will only makes one better and one worse.. So I don't mind the levels being within the ball park..
Thanks for the response, and please let me know if I'm missing something..
Posted 34 days ago.
>I added Epsom to bring my magnesium level to the desired water profile,
You don't need to add magnesium to your profile. You'll get all the magnesium you need from malt. The only time you need to add Epsom is when you're trying to add sulfate without adding calcium.
> The calcium is slightly too high
OK, then it could be legit, but what is "too high" and why do you think it's "too high"?
Posted 34 days ago.
I agree with uberg. Don't try to hit historical profiles, don't worry about every mineral. Make sure you have 50-100 PPM calcium, get the sulfate to chloride balance where it needs to be, and call it good. If the other minerals are low (even zero), this is okay.
If you hit the pH within .05 of your target, you're golden.
Posted 34 days ago.
Edited 34 days ago by homebrewdad
>The only time you need to add Epsom is when you're trying to add sulfate without adding calcium.
Good to know! It actually is in fact doing that, adding 27.8 ppm of Sulfate.. I can remove it, but I'd have to increase Gypsum to bring my Sulfate levels back up again.. which would in turn make me mess with my Calcium Chloride.. I will continue to tinker..
>why do you think it's "too high"?
That's a good question "what is too high?", because I don't know.. but just based off the target profile (50 ppm), my adjusted profile is technically too high (52 ppm).. I'm assuming this is minimal and not a big deal, but I could be wrong..
Posted 34 days ago.
50 PPM is a minimum for calcium, really for any style. 52 is fine, don't even look twice at that.
Posted 34 days ago.
You have to remember, this is "in the ballpark" stuff. You're not going to know the difference between 50ppm and 52ppm. In fact, unless you're using RO water, the natural variation in water supply could easily bump you up or down 2ppm of anything. In order of importance...
- pH. Get your pH right to maximize conversion and to prevent tannin extraction.
- Ca. Get this right because it's an enzyme co-factor, helps yeast reproduce, and helps flocculation. It can also help lower pH in the mash. anything between 50 and 150ppm is fine.
- SO4:Cl ratio. Think of you mash like you're listening to music. The ratio of SO4:Cl is like the balance of stereo, left to right. You add more SO4, it moves the perception of that music to the left side (bitterness). You add more Cl, it moves it to the right side (sweetness/maltiness). The total amount of salts you add is like turning the volume up or down. So you can have your music really loud out of the left channel, or mid-volume through both, etc. Whatever sounds (tastes) better to you and fits that style. In the music analogy, you might want to mix to mono (full left) and crank up the volume for something like garage rock. You'd want a well balanced and mid level volume for something like live or classical music. It depends on the style. Make sense? I wouldn't go SO4 over 400ppm total and I wouldn't push Cl over 150ppm total.
- Less is usually more when it comes to salts. If you end up with a product that doesn't taste quite like you expect, take a glass of that beer and add tiny amounts of a brewing salt to it. For instance, if your IPA isn't bitter enough, you might want to add a touch of gypsum. Take notes on how much you're adding and the perception you're getting off it. Use those notes to adjust future water profiles for that beer/beer style.
Posted 34 days ago.
Ok, I am going to take a sort of counterpoint, because... well we are homebrewing and water chem is a great place to experiment and differentiate your beer.
- While 50 ppm Ca is a general recommendation, it is not a requirement. Most lagers and many ales have been brewed with very soft water without mineral additions - and that is part of their defining character. Using Ca as a yeast factor is yeast related... and most american ale style yeasts will benefit from the elevated Ca levels.
- I HATE that the damned SO4:Cl ratio is a headline still... what matters are the actual concentrations of each, not their ratios. The ratios came from observations of water profiles that have been used successfully, but no-one can honestly say a 50 ppm Sulfate to 10 ppm Chloride is anyway equal to 200 ppm Sulfate to 40 ppm Chloride concentration... test it, it doesn't work. Always provide a basis for the ratio in any discussion! The music analogy is good - but this is an additive process. Chloride doesn't counter or remove Sulfate, anymore than an acid removes bicarbonate. All of those ions (save those that precipitate in the mash) make it into the kettle and bottle... the ratio can lead people to "turn it to 11" without any consideration and a terribly mineral rich beer. Consider the ratio a guideline.
- "Less is usually more when it comes to salts." I love you man! You can achieve 98% of the total impact of a water profile using only gypsum and calcium chloride. Sodium and Magnesium bring up the rear guard ions, and are usually not necessary to achieve your goals. They do bring flavor constituents to the table to consider.
- Spending the time trying to match carbonate, bicarbonate and RA numbers based on raw water is not really relevant, and can cause you to overlook the mash pH. As uberg33k mentioned - mash pH is priority #1 hands down. If you find that you are adding both alkali and acid into the same batch - then you are adding extra ions that are simply unnecessary - and likely flavor components you may not expect. Use either acid or alkali to achieve your desired mash pH.
accidentalis.com/archives/350 - give this a try with a really familiar beer and expand it to include sea salt and Epsom (carefully). Even tasting the salt solutions in DI water is eye opening.
I also hope I didn't step on any toes...
Posted 34 days ago.
Edited 34 days ago by mchrispen
Love the last post. Great discussion.
Posted 34 days ago.
I appreciate all the responses, very informative..
@Uberg33k - the list of priorities is a real help, it makes a lot of sense broken up like that
@mchrispen - that is a really interesting experiment, I will have to try soon..
In regards to the SO4/Cl ratio - I think I'm catching your drift as far as the concentrations being more important than the ratio itself.. but doesn't the spreadsheet drive the concentration anyways? Assuming I stick to concentrations along the water profile selected, then the ratio and the concentration should be correct.. I guess this would be more relevant if I was interested in creating my own water profile, or trying to decide between potential water profiles (like you said color based, or regional).. it might be more clear if I try your experiment to understand exactly what the concentrations taste like..
> Use either acid or alkali to achieve your desired mash pH
Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly do you mean by alkali? I am only planning on adding lactic acid, but would I be unintentionally adding alkali somewhere else? In my minerals or grains? Is an alkali another type of acid you can use?
My plan is to build from distilled water and use minerals/lactic acid water additions in the amounts on the spreadsheet to account for the mash acidification..
Posted 34 days ago.
mchrispen - I think you missed the analogy of stereo balance and volume. The balance and the total amount added matter. If you're trying to say that total sulfate has no impact on total chloride ... um ... ok. 200ppm SO4 doesn't taste the same when you have 0 ppm Cl and when you have 100 ppm Cl. The ratio matters. I agree total ppm is important though because 200ppm SO4 : 100 ppm Cl isn't the same as 20ppm SO4 : 10ppm Cl.
As for Ca ... yeah, you can make beer without it. Yeah, there's some in the malt. It may be enough. However ... it depends. Ca is used all over the place. If too much precipitates out during mash, you could end up having poor or slower conversion since it's not there to act as a cofactor. You could have crappier flocculation. Adding it is really more of an insurance policy. Since you'll more than likely be adding some form of SO4 and Cl anyway, might as well make it from an ion source that has a real impact on your beer at every step of the process.
Posted 34 days ago.
@blur_yo-face
The water profiles are already ratio driven by Martin. So when you select say, yellow bitter, it will have preset the ion targets to establish the desired ratio. This helps keep it less confusing. When you add minerals, you are doing so by concentration (grams/gal) so that the ionic calculation is consistent through however you divide your water (strike or mash / sparge / top up, etc.). Prioritize matching the sulfate, chloride concentrations for flavor, and then adjust mash pH with acid or alkali.
I brewed several times with the BWS Pale Ale profile. I made some modifications based on the experiment I posted, to (A) moderate the sulfate level downward and (b) slightly elevate the chloride. I also added in some magnesium, which I felt enhanced the kind of IPA I enjoy - tons of dank and pine balanced with citrus flavors. I edited the table to include my personal water target, ensuring that it also ionically balanced. It is now my go to water profile for any APA or IPA I brew... it doesn't follow a prescribed ratio, but can be described as a ratio.
Relative to alkali or acid, I wish that Martin would color code to indicate that Pickling Lime, Calcium and Baking Soda are alkali additions that raise mash pH. At the least they should be grouped together... and should never be used to achieve a specific bicarbonate level or calcium level in a target water profile. I have fielded a ton of questions where they use a bunch of pickling lime to get their desired 100 ppm calcium, but then in turn have to add a large dose of lactic acid to counter the alkalinity - resulting in a potential flavor contribution. By using either acid to bring your estimated mash pH down... or by using an alkali (baking soda or pickling lime) to raise the estimated mash pH, you minimize the ionic contribution to the beer and reduce the potential for larger swings in pH during the mash period.
Feel free to drop me (or Vinpaysdoc) your spreadsheet. Happy to look at it.A comment on chalk... don't use it. It doesn't dissolve well in water and for the same potential shift in pH over the mash period, you will use more chalk than necessary. The residual chalk that doesn't precipitate will fight the natural drop in pH in the boil kettle and in fermentation. If you can dissolve chalk with carbonic acid - then you are good to go, but it is beyond my patience to do so. It is simply a less effective solution to a little bit of baking soda (beware the sodium addition) or lime (can be dangerous to handle).
Posted 34 days ago.
@uberg33k - I got the analogy, just a disagreement on the function. Balance divides energy between given channels (and provides great tools for mixing tracks) where volume is a measure of total energy output. It is a sound (get it?) analogue (again!). You are explaining the Ratio correctly and it is important... where I get frustrated is that usually the Ratio is stated without a concentration (call it a reference level). Set a level and you can work out the balance, but just say 2:1 and that implies a lot of options that can quickly spin out of scale. Like your balance reference, sulfate and chloride play supporting roles to each other. Chloride may help build up a malty character in a DIPA while Sulfate enhances the dryness so hop bitterness to shine. I think we are in violent agreement... but there is a spectrum here to explore.
I agree with you on Calcium, but treat it as a guideline. It appears that anything over about 150 ppm will likely be bound up in the mash phosphate reactions and precipitate as oxalates in the mash and boil. I just spent the better part of the morning scrubbing that junk off my kettle... which indicates my Ca levels are generally too high.
At the end of the day BWS solves so much of this by suggesting/enforcing water profiles.
Posted 34 days ago.
Edited 34 days ago by mchrispen
BWS?
Posted 34 days ago.
