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You are here: Home --> Forum Home --> Brewing Forum --> Gear/Equipment --> Hopback Experiment

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mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


Given the presentation at NHC here... and the recent acquisition of a 1.5 gallon hopback, a buddy and I are going to do an experiment. That is the creation of a beer with no hops in the boil. Utilizing the hopback (HB), we will use entirely whole hops. The plan is to create some blog content, but possibly a follow up paper to the NHC preso.

First, we are going to lauter through a bag of hops, thinking that some oils will release and isomerize to provide a bit of a traditional bittering addtion, albeit more FWH-like. The hops will likely sit in a bag in a dish, since I gravity feed lauter, but will maintain at least a 45 minute contact time through the sparge (~165-170F).

This is consistent with the NHC presentation which showed between 1/3 and 1/2 of the measured IBUs came from this pre-boil procedure.

Then, we will add a "Flame Out" charge to the hopback and pump through it to return to the boil kettle for 15 minutes. I expect the temperature to drop to roughly 180F by the end of this, and we will let the wort rest for another 15 minutes. This means that the FO addition will be in contact with the wort and hop extracts for a minimum of 30 minutes.

The finishing hops will then be added into the hopback (with the other hops) and we will knock out to the fermenter and cool through a counterflow chiller to about 66F.

The beer recipe will be an IPA - inspired by Bell's 2 Hearted but with the addition of Cascade and a much higher OG (1.072)

Curious if anyone has some thoughts? We strike tomorrow AM early CST...




Posted 34 days ago.

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


I love this idea, and can't wait to hear your impressions...



Posted 34 days ago.

uberg33k
Charter Member
The Internet
314 Posts


A 1.5 gal hopback? Is that the Stout one?



Posted 34 days ago.

ingoogni
nl
314 Posts


Interesting stuff, the hopback-FWH makes me think of one of the old British methods where the bittering hop was taken out after 30 minutes of boil to prevent too much extraction of "green matter" (tannins etc). At the same time a new load for the next 30 min. was added. The first batch of hops was added to the hopback as a flitering layer.

There are quite some recipes around that still use the 30 minutes hop addition, but the story behind it isn't widely known and the first hop is left in the boil.

I've done quite a few no-boilers in the past and boiled a part of the sparge water with hops in it to get some bitterness in the beer. Worked quite well.




Posted 34 days ago.
Edited 34 days ago by ingoogni

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


Ingoogni, I had never heard that.  Extremely interesting!



Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


Uberg33k, yeah the one from Stout Tanks. Wanted something to grow with... Maybe moving up in brew size at some point. http://accidentalis.com/archives/757

I had read about that process, and wonder if that was due to lower alpha yields in the past and massive doses of whole hops. I think Mitch Steele touches on it in his book.

We are hoping to find a technique that puts astounding hop character into the beer. I tried all late hops in a saison and way more bitterness than expected. Did an IPA but with a 40 IBU magnum charge at 60 minutes... It's good but the hop choices were random based on whatever I had left in the freezer. I suspect I can even mix some pellet in with the whole hops if they filter well.






Posted 34 days ago.
Edited 34 days ago by mchrispen

ingoogni
nl
314 Posts


Actually, the alpha where the same in those days, comparing Goldings to Goldings or Saaz to Saaz, it's just that the high alpha hops as we know them today where not available. But yes, the alpha to "green matter" ratio may well have been the reason.

Just read your hopback blog, do you have any information on the wortflow speed / time and how much it extracts (is the hop tasteless afterwards?). Still contemplating a hopback for my big system where I cool 250 liters in 20 minutes.




Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


My knockout rate is roughly 1 gallon a minute using a convoluted counter flow chiller, when my tap water is roughly 65F. Cooler and I can flow out between 1.5 and 2 gallons per minute. Tap is rated at 65 psi - fairly fast flow.

I haven't recirculated yet with the hop back, but expect it will spend the hops... Hence a fresh charge at knockout. Also, some of the volatiles will be lost in the recirc with the hot and open BK... So the KO finishing hops should yield that blast of fresh oils into the fermenter. Would be nice if this can replace dry hopping, but I doubt it. Since I am on a keggle with a false bottom, hoping the recirc hop back will stand as a whirlpool.

Both the IPA and Saison batch yielded a lot of aroma when I cleaned out the hop back ... I didn't taste the residual hops.

Looks like the brew day is postponed till Friday, my collaborator can't make it out today.




Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


Ok so will be writing this up in more detail on my blog, but will capture some thoughts here.

It was cold as heck outside... ok wining because it was just nearly freezing here in Central Texas while everyone North and East is getting hammered with snow, sleet and ice. Still - cold. Neil Spake from ScottishBrewing.com joined me today for the experimental hopback attempt. We did not lauter through the hopback like the presentation linked earlier.

1.) Boiling a big beer without hops is --- interesting. I got the most incredible hot break... and had to skim this layer of scum off the top that skinned up - like the skin on a milk based soup. So strange.
2.) by 45 minutes - the whole batch looked like a dark egg drop soup. I have had great material form before, but nothing like this. Neil and I suspect that there maybe something going on with the lack of hops in the boil... which when added as FWH helps prevent foaming boil overs.
3.) At about the time I added the Whirlfloc and some Yeast Nutrient, the tank pressure dropped dramatic. The flame dropped out about 2 minutes before the 60 minute mark -- so just got lucky.
4.) a 1.5 gallon officially can hold about 12 ounces of hops - and not much more.
5.) Pretty tremendous pressure can build up. The hopbag somehow got caught under the lid seal and the side - and as the pressure built it sprayed and leaked wort. Any attempt to fix the seal just made the leaking worse. I think we lost a little over a gallon to the leaking. I am going to have to scrub my garage floor tomorrow - or maybe when things warm up just a bit more.
6.) We circulated the wort through the 12 ounces of Centenial and Cascades for 25 minutes, and unfortunately (maybe) the temperature quickly dropped to around 160F, below isomerization temps. This soaked up about another gallon or so of wort. After a 5 minute rest, and an attempt to release pressure on the hopback, we pulled out the big fat hopbag. I sanitized some gloves and squeezed this thing like nobodies business. I probably pulled about a quart of hop juice back into the kettle. Next time, I will have enough gas and may start circulation with a light flame going to keep the temps up.
7.) I put another 4 ounces of Cascades into the hopback - and knocked out to the fermenter.
8.) Very cold tap water (never happens here) let me knockout through the fresh hop charge at 66 F in less than 5 minutes. I replaced my plate chiller with a convoluted counterflow chiller and am giddy about it.
9.) There was still about 1.25 gallons of wort in the vessel, so we carefully (hot hot HOT!) disconnected it and drained it directly into the fermenter. I should have sanitized the exterior of the hopback, but didn't, but the heat should have helped prevent anything too nasty.
10.) Pitched at 64 F
11.) Such a very weird clean up - remember the strange hot break? It collected on the false bottom of my kettle - in a weird gelly like format. I have a picture of it on a spoon - I could pick it up in clumps and it was like the texture of soft tofu. Cleaned up easy enough at least.

Neil and I are talking about sending a sample in to test for IBU, unless we can find someone around here with the equipment.

The sensory of the brew day was very off - the mash was normal, but the boil was intense maltiness without any of the normal breaks of hop aromas. Even during the circulation through the boil kettle, the hop aromas were incredibly light, but a slick of hop oils was forming on the surface. The spillage on the floor was pretty aromatic - definitely smelled like a normal hop rich wort, but going into the fermenter was much less aromatic. I just tasted the gravity sample - and not sure what to expect. Hoppy, hop juicy, not sure about bitterness though. This might be more APA than IPA.

Sorry for the length...




Posted 34 days ago.
Edited 34 days ago by mchrispen

vinpaysdoc
Charter Member
High Point, NC
321 Posts


Sorry for the length? Shuddup!

Thanks for the update. I'll be interested to hear how this turns out.




Posted 34 days ago.

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


No doubt.  We love long winded detail.  Way better that "I brewed today."



Posted 34 days ago.

uberg33k
Charter Member
The Internet
314 Posts


I've had cold break similar to that, but nothing that ever formed during boil. Really weird, man. I'd love to see the brew day pics.



Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


I posted up the brewday... not sure the pics do much justice. Neil kept forgetting to take pictures, but there are some. That bit of break in the spoon was scraped from the false bottom. I could take it and make a ball out of it - really strange.

I wish I got a real picture of the wort pooling under the brewery - cold break formed in the flow pattern.




Posted 34 days ago.

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