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You are here: Home --> Forum Home --> General Forum --> Chitchat --> Who likes Festbier!?

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Matt
Charter Member
Normal, IL
341 Posts


Or Marzen. Or Oktoberfest. 

I'm really not to particular on what it's called, but I'd like to brew one. Here's what I've got, would love some feedback! I'm going for malty, smooth, and incredibly drinkable. Largely influenced by Gordon Strong's recipe from Modern Homebrew Recipes.

General
OG: 1.057
FG: 1.020
ABV: 4.8
IBUs: 21

Grains
70% Pilsner
15% Munich
15% Vienna

Hops
Hallertau @ 60
Hallertau @ 10

Yeast
Wyeast 2124, Bohemian Lager

Mash
(multi infusion step mash)
131F for ten minutes
146F for forty minutes
158F for twenty minutes
Mash Out

So here's where I'm caught up. 

That mash schedule means I'm mashing pretty thick at the start, and thin towards the end. That's fine, but the FG seems high and the ABV seems low. I don't really want this to be too sweet at the finish, I would love for it to be a bit sweet on the palate but finish crisp and dry. 

So, I'm considering subbing in for a single infusion mash at around 152F, but I'd be willing to hear other temperatures or mash plans on it. 

This is also a bit light, since it follows the new Festbier guidelines, and I'm used to the darker Marzens. I've considered going Ray's route and adding some special B and honey malt, both of which I love, but I also want to keep this incredibly drinkable and more of a malty showcase. 

Anyways, open to any an all suggestions!






Posted 34 days ago.
Edited 34 days ago by Matt

KidMoxie
Charter Member
San Elijo Hills, CA
405 Posts


Get rid of the 10 min addition.


2




Posted 34 days ago.

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


I agree.  No hops that late if you are going traditional.  Recipe looks solid overall, though I wonder how on earth the 1.020 FG projection is coming to be from an OG of just 1.057.
2




Posted 34 days ago.

Necropaw
Charter Member
Central WI
608 Posts


Is it not taking into account the early rest at 146...?  Only thing i can figure.  
2




Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


Not going to be much help on the advice side, but...

I had a marzen in Heidelberg that defines the tastier version for me. Like you, I like the big malt but not the sweetness I get from most US and homebrew variations. That marzen was incredibly dry and refreshing, a bit bigger than 5% - I think closer to 6% and fairly bitter. From my research, most of the traditional marzens were FWH and maybe a 30 minute addition - very little hop aroma. The Heidelberg (I wish I could remember the brewery - but I got pretty laid out by 4 of these over a nice meal) was very pale (still golden orange) - so maybe a little vienna (and/or some melanoidin) in there, but not much. Firm bitterness, a dry-ish finish and big malt without significant sweetness. Clean ferment - more likely a german lager strain. The Bohemian strain seems to leave some residual sweetness unless you hop to about 45-55 IBUs in the bittering charge.

The last Festbier I had in Munich was just aweful. Like tea with WAY too much sugar in it.




Posted 34 days ago.

Necropaw
Charter Member
Central WI
608 Posts


Weve had that conversation on this list a TON of times, actually.  Theres a bit of a renaissance in the O-fest style lately in general that has been suggesting that the style didnt used to be the malty clusterfuck that the US has made it (and some of Germany seems to have as well).

Isnt Marshall's O-fest the paler version?  I seem to remember that being one of his core beers, and its quite pale.

I need to get on making some of that.  Ugh, gotta get bock yeast for the BU challenge first.  Where in the fuck did August go!?!?!?!?!
2




Posted 34 days ago.

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


This remains one of my favorite styles, as there is so much room for interpretation.  You can go darker and maltier without being sweet.  

Of course, as we've discussed, one I had the Hofbrau Oftoberfest - which is a pale Festbier, as opposed to the darker Marzen - my eyes were opened.  I mean, religious experience type beer.  If the Festbier I'm doing for this comp is half of that, I'll be very happy with it.  
2




Posted 34 days ago.

Matt
Charter Member
Normal, IL
341 Posts


Eliminate ten minute, done. 

Your advice is always welcome Matt! I'm going to try to Bohemian Lager yeast this time around, I've already got a starter spinning and I've used the yeast quite a few times before and have been happy with it. If the recipe still ends up being too sweet, that'll be the first thing I sub out. 

So, any advice on the mash? That's really my biggest concern at this point. I mean, sure, Strong knows what he is talking about, but if I can get the same results with a single infusion I'm gonna. 




Posted 34 days ago.

rayfound
Charter Member
Riverside, CA
313 Posts


OK, my feedback. 

Looks like a festbier not a marzen. 

If you want it maltier, the spec B is good, honey too... but a higher proportion of Munich/Vienna are key IMO. Think of equal parts as a good starting point.. like 32/32/32 with 3% honey and 1% spec b (or even skip the Honey and Spec B, though it works well in mine I think - Marshall and Aaron have both had mine and can give you some idea as to the character - They have my full permission to be as harsh as required!). Those aren't my proportions per se (see Clarity ferm article), but this is a beer where I really think there are a LOT of right answers. 


 Expect 1.011-1.012 FG on that, no way 1.020 unless you're using a seriously shitty yeast. I get 78-80% routinely with 029, I'd expect a "Real Lager" strain to do just as well. Hell, with a 146 mash, Maybe even lower. Frankly, i think you're wasting your time with a step mash - 150-152 single infusion will work just dandy.

I like the maltier darker marzen better than most festbier styles (which just seem a bit too much like a Munich Helles to me). As long as you don't start putting c40 or something in, you're not going to get that cloying sickly shit that you find in Sam Adams Oktoberfest. Frankly, caramel/toffee flavors are out of place in this altogether, for my preferences. I want MALTY/TOASTY. Malty does not = SWEET. 


My O-fest is a lot like Marshalls (though I haven't had his), but I drop the c60 and use the spec b for a little character/complexity and color. 

1.055-1.059 is about right, with about a 1.011-1.013FG. Not too sharply dry, but something that finishes very clean and leaves you wondering why your glass is always empty. You want to drink a litre of this beer. 

I, in general like to push my bitterness towards the top of the range as anti-cloying insurance. So I run mine more like, 30ibu. I like late hopping, and use a pretty healthy (4oz/11gal) dose of Saaz @ 15. I bitter with magnum like I do for everything (this is just a brewhouse consistency thing - I run magnum as my bittering hop so I know if I note a harsh bitterness in a particular batch or something, I know it is probably NOT from my bittering charge). If you want it to be totally malt forward, I would move that to like, 30M or something... YMMV, I dunno. 

I don't really fuck with a lot of continental hops, so I can't tell you how Saaz vs. Hallertau vs. Tattanang is going to fare. I just buy magnum and CZ Saaz by the pound and use them. I've played with Bobek a bit too. I may just be a bit... dense I guess, i dunno - I really have a hard time distinguishing the Noble hop characters, and I suspect the differences between them are especially difficult on a more malt forward beer like this. 
2




Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


I always step mash (in lieu of torturing myself with decoctions) any german beer. I like the 146/148F (45 min) to 160F (20 min) to 168F (10 min) Hochkurz routine. I do check for conversion before mashing out.

I just got my BoPils scoresheet back from judging… Inquisition / Lawnmower category. It scored a 23 out of 100, with comments “Too malty and too bitter. Not to style” - this after it won a silver and a gold in comps the week before. So I call that (A) balance and (B) shitty judging. Take my advice with a grain of calcium chloride and avoid the Inquisition. I should add a gold medaling dubbel and a 3 medal sour saison got drubbed as well. We will judge better in the BU Challenge.


2




Posted 34 days ago.

rayfound
Charter Member
Riverside, CA
313 Posts


What do you think you get from the step mash that is missing from a single infusion? 
2




Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


On my system, better efficiency and apparent attenuation are measurable. The Hochkurz schedule checked out my foam retention issue I was fighting with an infusion at 151F. I do think that the very high rest at 160F helps – but who really knows?

Could be a RIMS or system or crush thing I guess. Not dissing an infusion… but my scores jumped when I moved to the step mash by about 4-5 points average. This could also be a compound of improvements in water chem, yeast handling, etc.

2




Posted 34 days ago.

Matt
Charter Member
Normal, IL
341 Posts


I'm pretty comfortable with the Hochkurz step mash, I did that with my Saison per your advice and it worked really well. May try that!

>Frankly, caramel/toffee flavors are out of place in this altogether

God yes. Thanks for the advice Ray, will definitely consider a single infusion mash as well, and might just do it for simplicities sake. I buy CZ Saaz by the pound as well for my BoPils, for some reason hadn't considered it in this since most of the sample recipes I look at have used Hallertau. Will also need to consider some special b, especially for color and a little bit more complexity. I'll also do a more even split with the three primary grains. 
2




Posted 34 days ago.

rayfound
Charter Member
Riverside, CA
313 Posts


I didn't mean to sound dismissive of your experience... was genuinely curious. I do sometimes do a 40M main mash, then cheat some of my sparge water in to bring up the temp a bit for the last bit. 


2




Posted 34 days ago.

rayfound
Charter Member
Riverside, CA
313 Posts


I don't know that any difference, if noted, between saaz-marzen and Hallertau-marzen could possibly be construed as one being better than the other. MAYBE they'd be different, but if you'd dropping them in 30M+ from the end, I would be pretty skeptical (assuming the malty side of the beer makes an appearance). 
2




Posted 34 days ago.

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