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You are here: Home --> Forum Home --> Brewing Forum --> Recipe Discussion --> Pilsner Malt

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ingoogni
nl
314 Posts


Why on earth would you want to use carafoam at all? Is there something wrong in your process that the foam is bad? Fix the process! Carafoam is completely different than chitmalz or spitzmalz, it has polymerised sugars that are not fermentable created by clever playing with heat etc. For excellent foam do a two step mash, 63°C and a short step @73°C. 80% of the foam quality comes from the glass and the (7 minutes) poor.

Reading many American fora, it amazes me that the cure for a problem often is the use of a "product" (specialty malt, pH stabilizer), instead of changing/fixing the process. For the big Pro's I can understand it, for us? No.

Now that we're at it, there is something interesting going on in the malt world, or actually the barley itself. Very slowly over the past decade the gelatinization temperature, of at least continental barley, is creeping up. Big breweries notice this as their FG's starts rising a tad.

German brewing and beer, now that is fun. It is indeed not that clean as many think although it depends on the region but also a lot on the season. Hot summer in a beergarten, you won't get great beer. In late autum  and spring, maybe. When rotation gets up in summer lagering is shortend. It is then on the same quality level of British or American 9- or 11-day beers. Rough and unfinished, diacetyl and DMS.




Posted 34 days ago.

darthKOTOR
Sacramento, Ca
18 Posts


I am sensing a bit of hostility, man.

There is nothing wrong with using carafoam in a beer, and for my specific recipe its just to fuck around. I don't expect to get an amazing beer out of it. I just want to see what happens (and I don't have access to chit malt, I am in CA, so this is a test to see how close it might be to chit).

Carafoam is actually quite common in German Hobby Brewing, and from what I can gather a lot of the larger breweries have their malt customized to their specific process (enzyme strength, color, flavor profiles). The Pils malt you purchase from Weyermann and have shipped 6000 miles is going to be different than the stuff Ayinger might have custom ordered and a team of scientists sweat over to make sure the final product is perfect. That and those malts are designed to be step mashed (generalization) or decocted on veeery different systems, while most malt that we purchase on the homebrew scale is designed to be single infusion mashed.

Carafoam/Chit/Spitz malt allows us to modify our grain bills to (hopefully) better match what the big boys are using. At least, that's how I am attempting to use it. Its not to fix foam, its not some miracle cure for a problem I have, its a modifier that I am experimenting with to see how close I can get my beer to Paulaner's Muncher Helles.




Posted 34 days ago.

Stonehands
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
59 Posts


Why, oh why, would you want to get close to Paulaner when you should be trying to get close to AUGUSTINER!?!?



Posted 34 days ago.

darthKOTOR
Sacramento, Ca
18 Posts


Stonehands... I haven't had Augustiner. I have heard literally only good things, though. I am all the way over in California, halfway 'round the world. The few brands I see regularly are Bitburger, Spaten, Paulaner, and Weihenstephaner. The thing that set me down this rabbit hole of lager brewing is the Paulaner Helles.

I am heading to Germany this year on my Honeymoon, though. We are taking a cruise up the Rhine River and I hope to god that I can find some fresh Augustiner in the area. I tried to make Munich on the travel itinerary but I just couldn't.

If anyone wanted to set up a beer trade, however, I would be so incredibly happy to have some Augustiner. Or if anyone knows where I could find it this far west, I would be stoked.




Posted 34 days ago.

vinpaysdoc
Charter Member
High Point, NC
321 Posts


If you can't find Augustiner in Germany, well, you were too busy on your honeymoon. Congrats! Stonehand's Helles is damned good and I think you'd do well to convince him to send you some for a wedding present....




Posted 34 days ago.

darthKOTOR
Sacramento, Ca
18 Posts


Tell that to my Fiance. "This is not a beer trip, its our trip". I think a compromise is in order.

I have been meaning to pick Stonehand's brain on a variety of lager related subjects. I brewed the Maibock he bragged about and I found it amazing

.




Posted 34 days ago.

Necropaw
Charter Member
Central WI
608 Posts


This is not a beer trip, its our trip

Just tell her:






Posted 34 days ago.

Necropaw
Charter Member
Central WI
608 Posts


I think i borkded the thread.




Posted 34 days ago.

darthKOTOR
Sacramento, Ca
18 Posts


Its ok, the last one was a bit long.

Funny post though. I don't know how well that'd go down. She was insistent on Peru, but I was able to convince her that South America can come in later years.




Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


@ darthKotor - yeah, I think RF's experiences somewhat mirror what Brandon is trying to (allegedly achieved) accomplish. I was shut out at the german brewing site as I was not part of their illuminati... Brandon is relying heavily on Nico (a German trained brewer working in England), and his classic Weihenstephan training is steeped in Narsiss's master works. 

Judged this evening with RF - interesting guy. Argentinian with German speaking heritage and spent the last decade in Munich as an engineer and in a home brewing club with retired Augustiner master brewers. I am going to pick this guy's brain apart... but he said something I think VERY IMPORTANT to remember:

Many of the German (home) brewing practices are steeped tradition and habit, not based in empirical science. It was refreshing to hear him say this - he is quite open to easier processes. He also loves mead - so I am going to teach him mead making.

@Ingoogni - I appreciate your comments as well. I agree, and have worked hard to perfect my step mash schedules, mash pH, boil pH and so forth to accommodate rich and luscious and persistent foam. That said - Carafoam does have a flavor contribution and I suspect it combined with Carahell brings some specific flavor/melanoiden/residual sweetness that may help to mimic the brewery malts and work specifically with Bavarian yeast strains. When texts reference brumalz, chitmalz, spitzmalz, it throws red flags because the reason is seldom provided. Chit seems to help "reduce average modification", but requires intensive techniques to yield quality extract. I can say with some certain that malt freshness may come into play... and hope to do a short fresh/old malt experiment with Blacklands Malt here. My helles made with avangarde pils (really really old and stale) finally took a nice turn, but under it's bright corn aromas is a stale dull white bread flavor that isn't attractive. Compared to the same recipe made with Bestmalz Heidelberg, it is night and day. Certainly worth 5-6 points of judging.

All of this may be tilting at windmills - but the experiments are yielding yummy crisp lagers!






Posted 34 days ago.

darthKOTOR
Sacramento, Ca
18 Posts


The German brewing forum just got shut down, not totally sure why that is, but I have been told that it will be coming back soon in another format. I found them to be very helpful, but lacking in the "amicability" department. 

Shameless plug for my new sub https://www.reddit.com/r/lagerbrewing, all about lagerbrewing. I am hoping to have a community as resourceful as the the germanbrewing.net group but a bit more friendly and empirical. It sounds like you have a bit of experience so I would really like to hear your opinion on the conversations that may happen over there. (maybe update me on the Argentenian/German dude???)

As for your comment on carafoam/carahell and the combination of things: I think that's where the "magic" lies. Its not single variables that matter, but rather an assortment of variables put together in specific styles that produce wildly different products. Pulled from a comment I made on reddit yesterday:

My thought process is that the variables have an affect on eachother. Much like the debate of hazy IPA's has been happening recently. More specifically the affect of dry hopping heavily (>1lb/bbl) on English Ale strains like 1318/007/005, an example of multiple variables that produce clear beer outside of a NE IPA, but when combined in the right happenstance it produces this creamy, murky, fruity beer.

I think its the combination of variables we should be testing. 

Just a heads up, you might be in the wrong thread. Necropaw accidentally made a new thread instead of the Pilsner malt discussion. 





Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


The break happens sometimes when responding via email.

I'll track on the lager brewing site. Already subbed.

I noticed my account didn't work at forum.germanbrewing.net yesterday. I think the guys are regrouping to publish a book or something. I get Brandon's position, but not the secret handshake junk. As for the "Narsiss Complex" (TM), that no doubt the definitive German brewing text, and results in great beer. The question comes down to truly blind triangle testing that eliminates variables. Going to be a long slog to fairly set that up, even for a single recipe. My theory is there is an increased attention to details effect in play with home brewers - generally the more care is reflected in the final product.

While I agree in general with your statement, I struggle with the line of beer for fun, and bleeding sweat for the craft. I don't mean cutting corners, but identifying the important issues and getting them mostly right. Bryan's 9 hour brew days are silly even by commercial standards, but I bet his beer is pretty fine!

As I dig more in RF's process will share - but with his permission. I am sure he will play ball.




Posted 34 days ago.

ingoogni
nl
314 Posts


No hostility intended at all, just an observation on the differences in the approach to a problem.

searching for Carafoam gives me just 20 hits on hobbybrauer.de, the news (2014) that Weyerman stopped making Spitzmalz got very negative reactions. Being quite active on that forum I can say that Carafoam Carapils or Carahell are not used that much, or any Cara for that matter. It makes the beer "Mastig".

Augustiner, Paulaner, if available in the US, try a Helles from the Spalter brewery.




Posted 34 days ago.

ingoogni
nl
314 Posts


mcrispen,

pale palt is the lightest form of bruehmalz, it has been stewed only slightly. The darkest is Castle's Aromatic 120, in between are Vienna, the Munich's, the Melanoidins, the  Aromatics and a very special one, red rye malt (that is also a sour malt). It is not a straight line from light to dark, for example the main difference between Aromatic and Melanoidin malt is whether the malt is dried before the roasting or roasted wet.

Carapils is made of very very undermodified 'malt', even less modified than Spitzmalz. It has a lot of proteins left and a lot of dextrins, both being foam positive. Many of the sugars/dextrins are polymerised otherwise the amylases from the other parts of the grist would reduce them and you only have the proteins left. It may have enzymes left but a 100% beer with it will yield a low fermentability. Spitzmalz is just a way around the RHG that forbids unmalted barley, use it as if you'ld be brewing an English beer, it is a body builder without adding sweetness.

Carahell is just the lightest Caramalt that adds a lot of sweetness, somewhat comparable with the lightest coloured caramel made of maltose.




Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


Thanks Ingoogni...

Do you mean Weyermann Carafoam? Carapils in the states is a Briess trademarked product. Thanks for the clarification.

RE your other comment about the German home brewing community, it has been at least two German home brewers from Munich that have been critical of my American approach to German beers. That I make my Helles from 100% Bestmalz Pilz and not use Carafoan and Carahell really angered both of them. My blog post on my "Tale of Two Lagers" solicited the most generous responses, comments I will not approve, all because I use the term German style. Blew my mind.

There is also a small group of rabid US home brewers that, as I have mentioned, seem to have taken this to radical extremes. So I got harrassed on each side. People can be quite strange, but the crazy passion about German brewing was unexpected.






Posted 34 days ago.

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