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You are here: Home --> Forum Home --> Brewing Forum --> Brewing Discussion --> A Kentucky Common?

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KidMoxie
Charter Member
San Elijo Hills, CA
405 Posts

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


That sounds... delicious.




Posted 34 days ago.

testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


ORRRRR....you can make this a true Olanbier and roast it yourself!




Posted 34 days ago.

Necropaw
Charter Member
Central WI
608 Posts


Force you to do what the rest of us had to for that damn competition...

Wish i had kept better notes. I dont remember exactly what temp/duration i used for my toasted munich malt. It'd be fun to try to make that beer again with the same recipe.




Posted 34 days ago.

KidMoxie
Charter Member
San Elijo Hills, CA
405 Posts


Yeah, I feel like you need some penance for your goofball competition rules that you never even participated in yourself :P




Posted 34 days ago.

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


Damn it. Roasting my own rye sounds like fun.




Posted 34 days ago.

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


The LHBS says they have chocolate rye, ~400L-~500L.




Posted 34 days ago.

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


Hmm.... one other thing I'm wondering. It seems like almost everybody is using flaked rye instead of rye malt. Why is this?




Posted 34 days ago.

chino_brews
Charter Member
Eden Prairie, MN
301 Posts


@TestingApril: the Zymurgy recipe comes before Leah Diennes and Dibbs
Hartings research on the style, from which the BJCP style guideiine is
derived.

Amahl doesn't even really explain why he includes rye.
"Sour mashing of malted six-row barley with corn grits and rye was
standard procedure for producing Kentucky bourbon ... A bit of rye malt
will add a spicy nuance". Combined with the sour mash, he doesn't care
to be historically true to the style, and it would be judged out of
style in a BJCP comp (unless some judge substituted their personal bias
for the subcategory's specs).

No it wasn't. Rye was not an
ingredient used in making much whiskey in Kentucky at the time
apparently. Rye whiskey came from Pennsylvana and Maryland, and the
Kentuckians were trying to distinguish themselves by using barley and
wheat to make a lighter, cleaner whiskey (barley was tough to cultivate
in the colonial days, but had acclimated to America soil by the time
people were making whiskey in Kentucky). Eventually, in Ky. there was
bourbon, "straight" or Kentucky whiskey, both made with barley, "wheated
whiskey", and rye whiskey. But bourbon and Kentucky whiskey
predominated.

@HomeBrewDad

The recipe from the BJCP
meeting presentation basically takes a whiskey mash of the time and
turns it on its head: "60% Pale Malt (most likely locally available 6
row malt), 36% to 38% corn grits, 1½% to 2% Black malt, 0 to 1½% Caramel
malt (possibly caramel coloring in early years)." For 1.040-1.045.

Cereal mash: corn grits plus 25% of the malt, 102°F --> 156°F --> boil. Gypsum added at ~ 65 ppm.

Main mash: 125°F --> add back cereal mash and rest at 156-158°F --> mash out

Hops:
Western hops (probably California gray) for bittering, 1/2 lb./bbl @
FWH (1/3 of addition) and @ 90 (other 2/3), plus NY hops (definitely
Cluster) for flavor, 1/2 lb./bbl @ 45, and imported hops for aroma (1/20
to 1/10 lb./bbl), most likely German or Czech noble. Total boil: 120
minutes. For the Western hops, I would either use Cluster or look to see
what hops they imported at Wye for cross-breeding purposes and try to
find a varietal that still exists.

Chill rapidly to 60°F for
break formation, aerate, and then pitch at 66-68°F. Ferment at 66-72°F,
3-5 days typical. Rack to chip tank with finings. Rack to cask, kraeusen
it, and bung up, to achieve 3-3.5 volumes. Dispense at cellar temp.

Was
it sour mashed like local whiskey? None of the surviving brewing
records support this, instead outlining the stepped cereal/infusion
mash. Given that the brewers were German, I strongly doubt it.

Was
the beer served sour? While there is one reference in a lb analysis to
slight sourness characteristic to bacterial contamination in Wahl &
Henius, if you read the other analyses by Wahl & Henius, you see a
pattern among all ales, with many "clean" styles showing much more
pronounced bacterial character. Should we redefine American Cream Ale to
be sour? So now we see the reason Americans went gaga for lager beer --
those brewers were set up for cold storage (and later cold
distribution) that inhibited LAB.

As Diennes says, "No turn of
the century brewer would contaminate their brewery with these spoilage
bacteria." Even if some Ky Common was spoiled due to poor cooperage or
cellarmanship, why would we choose to emulate the shitty example(s) of
the style rather than the well-brewed and -served examples?

Anyway, that's my two cents. I've obviously looked into it, and have my notes, but it hasn't excited me enough to actually brew it compared to some other experimental stuff I want to work on.




Posted 34 days ago.

testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


Because some competition required them to?




Posted 34 days ago.

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


Yeah, I've read some of this. I agree with Cluster hops as being a pretty good match to the historical varieties used. I considered Saaz as a finishing hop, but have decided to forego the imported aspect.

As for the rye - it could be a wide misunderstanding, but almost every recipe that I see has rye in it. I feel like this will go nicely with cluster hops (that whole spicy aspect); I don't see me dropping rye, as otherwise, this becomes really close to a pretty boring cream ale IMO. Maybe I'm not perfectly historically accurate, but I'm likely as close as anyone is doing, and I'm okay with that.

And even if I'm not... I want to brew a beer I'm gong to enjoy. :)




Posted 34 days ago.

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


So, I've modified the recipe just a bit. I'm also considering toasting a half pound or so of the rye, because reasons.

It's now as follows:


Batch size: 5.5 gallons
Efficiency: 74%
OG: 1.050
FG: 1.014
ABV: 4.71%
IBU: 20.3
Color: 15.1 SRM


Grain bill:
5 lbs 8 oz pale malt (6 row) - 50%
2 lbs 8 oz rye malt - 22.7%
2 lbs flaked corn - 18.2%
12 oz C60 - 6.8%
4 oz Chocolate Rye - 2.3%

Hops:
.75 oz Cluster FWH (7% AA) - 18.3 IBU
.25 oz Cluster (7% AA) @ 10 min - 2 IBU

Yeast:
WLP810 San Francisco Lager

Mash:
single infusion @ 148 F




Posted 34 days ago.

uberg33k
Charter Member
The Internet
314 Posts


Has anyone here actually read Wahl & Henius's description of Kentucky Common in American Handy Book of the Brewing, Malting, and Auxiliary Trades?  Cause reading this, I get the feeling the answer is no.  It's free on Google Play if you're interested.  I think your recipe sounds interesting, but it isn't a historic description of Kentucky Common if that's what you really want to make.  Keep in mind, this was written in 1901 when Kentucky Common was still being produced.  From page 818:  (emphasis mine)

KENTUCKY COMMON BEER. Like California steam beer, Kentucky common beer is mainly consumed by the laboring classes, and is chiefly brewed in Louis ville, Ky. It is marketed while still in an early stage of fer mentation. Materials employed are : Barley malt and about 25 to 30 per cent of corn, with some sugar color, caramel or roasted malt to give a dark color. 

Balling of wort about 10 to 11 per cent. (translation SG of 1.040-1.044)

Mashing temperatures vary greatly, both low and high initial temperatures being taken. In the latter case the corn mash is cooled with water before running into the mash-tun. (to me, "corn mash" means cereal mash)

Boiling. — The wort is boiled with about one-half pound of hops per barrel, and cooled to 60° F. (120 to 130 R.).  (that would make it about 1.25 oz per 5 gallons)

Fermentation. — The wort is pitched with one-third of a pound of top-fermentation yeast per barrel, allowed to come full in Kriiusen, and then transferred from the fermenter directly into the trade packages, which are placed on troughs, into which the yeast is allowed to work out. The barrels are kept full continually by topping up every few hours. After 48 hours in the barrels the fermentation is over and the barrels are bunged ; when very much gas is required they may be closed in 24 hours. The beers are not as a rule Kriiusened, nor fined, and con sequently have a "muddy" appearance, but a moderately clear article can be obtained if the saloonkeeper lays in a supply so that it can settle a few days before tapping.

So, no rye ... at all ... and there would have been a dose of colored sugar.  Sugar was pretty dang expensive in the mid 1850s, so it would have not been surprising if they substituted molasses  (treacle) or more likely for the area, sorghum syrup.  Later on, I'm sure they just used brewer's invert or caramel because sugar was cheaper in the late 19th century / early 20th century.  

I've also read some early examples were apparently fermented directly in barrel and sent out to bars immediately after being bunged.  This was the cheap beer, so they would have used previously used barrels.  In this area, that would have meant bourbon barrels and bourbon barrels are 52gal.  That changes the hopping rate and possibly gives the beer a hint of bourbon.  That's an interesting twist, although for only being in the barrel for 3-4 days before being consumed means it's really a faint hint of bourbon.




Posted 34 days ago.

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


Good info there, uberg. I'm a little low on corn, and way heavy on rye for it to be historically accurate. Okay, cool.

Quoting myself from a few posts ago....

>I don't see me dropping rye, as otherwise, this becomes really close to a pretty boring cream ale IMO. Maybe I'm not perfectly historically accurate, but I'm likely as close as anyone is doing, and I'm okay with that.

So, I'll call it "historically inspired". Or something. Interesting how almost all of the Kentucky Common recipes you find have rye in them.




Posted 34 days ago.

ingoogni
nl
314 Posts


What a nice and simple beer.

So, depending on the size of a 'barrel' you'd have between 23 and 33 IBU. When the beer is still yeasty at drinking with the bitter yeast sticking at the back of your tongue the 33 seems a bit high.

Uberg, what malt? 50/50 pale&mild, smallest pinch of melanoidin?

There is still some Tennessee yeast in the fridge.




Posted 34 days ago.

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