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You are here: Home --> Forum Home --> Brewing Forum --> Brewing Discussion --> To add acid, or not..

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mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


BWS - Bru'n Water Spreadsheet... sorry about that



Posted 34 days ago.

vinpaysdoc
Charter Member
High Point, NC
321 Posts


Great discussion!

Let me state that I have far less experience than Matt and Uberg in such matters. Listen to them first as I am still learning my way. I can effectively balance numbers in Martin's program but do not understand completely what it is I am doing. I am currently finding ways to match the profiles Martin has given and adding acid malt alongside Pickling Lime. Keep educating me Matt and Uberg! I'll get there some day.

Matt, mind sharing that APA/IPA profile?




Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


Sure:

Matt's Hoppy Water Profile

Ca: 145 ppm
Mg: 18 ppm
Na: 25 ppm
SO4: 220 ppm
Cl: 130 ppm
HCO3: 92 ppm

1.7:1 Ratio

Corrected Profile below

Mg and Na are low enough to ignore, although I tend to use a little of each. Using this to target a 5.4 mash pH usually requires a bit of lactic acid (or phosphoric) - and I generally get fluffy hot break in the kettle. Really large hot break in the kettle forms around pH 5.1 about 1/2 - 2/3 into the boil. With the addition of kettle finings - this will drop my IPAs star bright (most reasonably floc yeasts) in just a few weeks at crash/serving temperatures. Gelatin or SuperKleer will reduce that time frame to about 3 or 4 days. I still get very sharp bitterness and a dry finish from the sulfate while the chloride helps support a malty backbone with only a tiny bit of crystal in the grist. This also works well for an ESB or a Mild without tripping into very minerally character.




Posted 34 days ago.
Edited 34 days ago by mchrispen

vinpaysdoc
Charter Member
High Point, NC
321 Posts


Many thanks. I'll try this out with the next Pale I do.



Posted 34 days ago.

uberg33k
Charter Member
The Internet
314 Posts


Matt - what are you starting with to get that profile?



Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


I start with RO water... but it looks like I made a transcription error - that profile is too high in chloride. I may have pulled it from a beta version of BWS where I was playing around.



Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


Ok here is the correct profile. My apologies.

I start with RO water at 100%.

Matt's Hoppy Water Profile

Ca = 96
Mg = 15
Na = 24
SO4 = 220
Cl = 90
HCO3 = 0 <- ignore this

Ratio: 2.4:1

If you like, you can ignore the Mg and Na. If so - the Ca will rise as you will need more gypsum to hit the SO4 target.




Posted 34 days ago.
Edited 34 days ago by mchrispen

uberg33k
Charter Member
The Internet
314 Posts


OK, are you buying RO at the store or do you have a unit?  I ask because it seems timely with the RO review posted yesterday.

I'm also a bit confused.  You agreed that mostly sticking with gypsum and CaCl is really the way to go, but now you're showing that you add Na and Mg.  What's your reasoning behind adding that?




Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


I have a large RO unit designed for big aquarium systems... made by Hydro Logic. It lets me prepare water very quickly and deals well with the really crappy bicarb and sodium load of my feed.

I approach water profiles from a culinary perspective and then manage pH with acid. Maybe (I hate this term) I feel they add some umami to the beer? Like using soy sauce or worcestershire (sp?) or MSG instead of sea salt in a dish. They are not necessary, but can be a nice flavor enhancer.

As I said before, you can achieve 95% of the flavor impact of a profile using just gypsum and calcium chloride. The Epsom and table salt, while background players, do bring some nuanced flavors to the table while controlling excessive calcium levels. The levels above are just enough to add some sour/bitterness to enhance the hops expression - in my opinion. I did a side by side comparison with a few trusted friends - one built only with the gypsum and calcium chloride - and one built with Epsom, Gypsum and Calcium Chloride = in a identical APA. While nobody picked out the flavors of magnesium or sodium - the APA with those was marked as more interesting and complex, with a richer hop flavor. In a super hoppy -tongue scortching -bitter beer you will probably not notice it at all. I prefer dank, fruity but balanced, and very little crystal in the base beer.

I have also gotten used to adding some Epsom and table salt (not a lot) to my darker beers. While chloride is the primary support of malt flavors here - the sodium and magnesium again seem to richen up the beer. The challenge with magnesium is getting the right level of sulfate... I don't have any magnesium chloride.

I really recommend trying to dose some of your finished beer with an Epsom solution... carefully of course, and compare for yourself. It may not pop for you.




Posted 34 days ago.

blur_yo_face
Houston, Tx
161 Posts


interesting, I recently purchased a used Hydro Logic system.. I went to a hydroponic shop with the intention of just buying calibration buffers for my pH meter, and walked away with a Stealth RO200 for ~$100.. 

I'm still trying to decide how I want to use it, if I just want to hook it up and get the water I need the day before brew day.. or have it installed as a permanent fixture with a pressurized storage tank and faucet.. I loved Nick's post, but I don't have a sink/water line I can attach it to like he did.. it would have to be hidden below the sink..




Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


So... a reminder that Epsom is a laxative when used in certain quantities. Hence the warning. At the levels used in beer, it has no laxative effects.

Laxative concentrations are about 1 tsp of Epsom to 4 ounces of water and a little lemon juice to help it dissolve and for flavor.

The concentration in that profile is roughly 0.6 grams/gallon.




Posted 34 days ago.

uberg33k
Charter Member
The Internet
314 Posts


If you're looking for MgCl2, I got mine here http://www.amazon.com/Magnesium-Chloride-Ultra-Flakes-grams/dp/B008DMFDN6/ref=sr_1_41?ie=UTF8&qid=1423846004&sr=8-41&keywords=magnesium+chloride

Not the cheapest, but 100g will probably last me years to come.

So if you think there's some depth to be had from it's addition, what styles are you proposing benefit, other than the APA in your example?




Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


My RO system sits on a malt barrel right next to my system. The rejection water is caught and used for cleaning fermenters or what not if needed. I still need to invest in a float valve so I can walk away and let it fill my HLT.



Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


uberg33k - I really dig your logo btw... seriously well done.

So on the style front I am still experimenting. I was on a mission last year to perfect my APA (6 straight batches) and after a discussion with Martin B, was encouraged to go ahead and use the Mg and Na as flavor reinforcements. So I haven't exhausted that research at all in other styles. I like that little bit of twang sitting under the hops... and probably should mention that I am using largely US hops with the occasional NZ hop blended in the finish for something different and a very clean yeast... I would like to explore the mineral flavor constituents with a variety of hop oil levels and concentrations - but that is a lifetime project.

I have used Epsom in a porter, but have not brewed it without the addition bit to compare. I have a robust porter about to come out of conditioning and to keg. I can do some dosing and see where I think the level should be. This risk might be drying out the beer too much and roughening up the hop and roast character. 

Oh... saisons - I used the profile provided in the Farmhouse Ales book... really love that profile. I tend to try to use 'local' decarbonated profiles for my saisons - like Ardennes. There is more sulfate than I expected in most of the water tables in the Wallonia region - generally closer to yellow bitter in the BWS profile list.




Posted 34 days ago.

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