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You are here: Home --> Forum Home --> Brewing Forum --> Brewing Discussion --> Malts and Maltsers

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rayfound
Charter Member
Riverside, CA
313 Posts


I'll retract my earlier opinion that the malt doesn't matter... I mean, I still suspect if it was JUST the RB that was different, and they had similar Lovibond ratings, you're going to have burnt out a lot of the subtlety, but I will be the first to admit that any roast barley is a LOOOOOONG way away from my expertise.
2




Posted 34 days ago.

testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


> Do you really need flaked oats *and* flaked barley?

Yes. Flake all the grains. Except wheat. flaked wheat is an abomination.

I think London ESB is what 3 Floyds uses, so that would make sense to me. 090 should work, as should 007. I'm not preferential to a particular yeast for RIS, yet.


On Wed, Aug 19, 2015 at 2:59 PM, rayfound <listpost@brewunited.com> wrote:
I'll retract my earlier opinion that the malt doesn't matter... I mean, I still suspect if it was JUST the RB that was different, and they had similar Lovibond ratings, you're going to have burnt out a lot of the subtlety, but I will be the first to admit that any roast barley is a LOOOOOONG way away from my expertise.

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Posted 34 days ago.

Matt
Charter Member
Normal, IL
341 Posts


I'm going to need you to explain that "using both flaked grains" thing to me. What am I getting from the flaked barley that I'm not getting from the oats? Vice versa? Or is it more of a hunch?
2




Posted 34 days ago.

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


Flaked barley is magic?
2




Posted 34 days ago.

testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


It's really just because Wake-n-Bake uses both. But I suspect you're getting different flavors, different protein structures, different levels and kinds of beta glucans, and maybe more. I'm no expert, but I suspect the main contribution of flaked oats is Beta Glucan, while the main contribution of Flaked barley is protein.

Oh, there's also an experiment here: http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=201483&page=3




Posted 34 days ago.
Edited 34 days ago by testingapril

Matt
Charter Member
Normal, IL
341 Posts


Read that test! So...Oats forever?



Posted 34 days ago.

ingoogni
nl
314 Posts


Why roasted Barley? Why not only patent black?


Simple RIS:
OG 1111, FG 1020
60% Mild malt
30% Brown Malt
5% Patent Black
5% Invert#3
mash 60-90 min @68°C or higher* for milkshake consistency
95 IBU Sovereign @FWH
umpteenth generation WLP026

*made a 1060 Porter, mashed in @ 75°C, fermented with Windsor apparent fermentation a tad below 50%, a spoon could stand upright in the beer.




Posted 34 days ago.
Edited 34 days ago by ingoogni

homebrewdad
Charter Member
Birmingham, AL
2480 Posts


Ingoogni, I love having your input on various topics. You come from a different frame of reference, and challenge some of those ideas a lot of us seem to consider as "just how things are supposed to be".




Posted 34 days ago.

Matt
Charter Member
Normal, IL
341 Posts


Because I love me some Chocolate malt. May do a Chocolate/Black Patent/Pale Chocoalte split! 



Posted 34 days ago.

testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


I have no doubt ingoogni's stout is delicious, I like the sound of it actually, but I imagine it as more of a British, true export RIS sort of stout.

What I think Matt's going for is more the big, monster American RIS which I think requires the complexity of multiple roasted grains/malts.




Posted 34 days ago.

Matt
Charter Member
Normal, IL
341 Posts


>What I think Matt's going for is more the big, monster American RIS which I think requires the complexity of multiple roasted grains/malts.

Can confirm. 




Posted 34 days ago.

KidMoxie
Charter Member
San Elijo Hills, CA
405 Posts


Is monster.




Posted 34 days ago.

ingoogni
nl
314 Posts


||complexity of multiple roasted grains/malts.

If you go through the range of toasted an roasted malts from Biscuit (50 EBC) to patent Black (1100+EBC) there is a gap at ~200 - 500 EBC. There are no roasted malts in that colour range as to get that colour many chemicals are produced in the malt that taste nasty. In darker malts these chemicals evaporate, in lighter malts they are not formed.

Brown malt is on the edge and sometimes slightly over. Some of these components are there in low levels and contribute in a positive way to the complexity of this malt, it also makes the taste of the malt change depending on the amount used. From bread crust to salmiak (salty liquorice) to black chocolate to burnt. Never underestimate the effect of a lot of brown malt.

A similar change in taste can be observed in black malt, from a slight bittering with a burnt edge to deeply bittering with the taste of old leather without the burnt edge.
The dark malts, brown and up also have a negative impact on fermentability (the yeast I use is a beast).

What do added flakes? They mainly add sugar, so I just add sugar instead of flakes, sugar with a taste. A taste that doesn't go under against the dark malt and has quite a few aspects of cara malt, but different.

In the case of oats they also add that silky mouthfeel, where rye is more sticky. Is that mouthfeel so much more compared to a beer mashed in higher? So for a silkier, or fuller mouthfeel I mash higher, not just a few °C, but a lot. You can go up to 80°C, fermentability drops a lot then. Make sure you have full conversion, maybe use a enzyme booster and mash out as immediately as conversion is there.










Posted 34 days ago.
Edited 34 days ago by ingoogni

ercousin
Charter Member
Toronto, Canada
77 Posts


I was listening to Beersmith podcast lately and learned something that I should have known but hadn't made the connection in my mind. I think it was the episode with Randy Mosher talking about malts. There was also a podcast with Bamforth talking about malts so it might have been that one...

I've known about the no roasted malts between brown and pale chocolate due to harshness thing for a while. Randy claims that the more intense and acrid roast malts are actually the lower L ones, and as you get higher that character burns off and just leaves you with colour and a rounder roast flavour. I'm not sure how Pale Chocolate fits into this, maybe it actually is very acrid and I've just never used it alone and assumed the acrid came from the 500L roast malt. Everyone claims it is smooth.

Essentially this means that chocolate malt is more intensely flavoured and acrid than black patent.

Also Matt, if you are going to make the switch over to english roasted malts, skip the Muntons. Go for a quality Malster like Fawcett, Bairds, or Simpsons.

Here are some numbers, ranged averaged and rounded to the nearest 25L.

Fawcett
Pale Chocolate = 200L
Chocolate = 350L
Roasted = 450L
Black = 450L

Baird
Chocolate = 475L
Roasted = 550L
Black = 550L

Simpsons
Chocolate = 450L
Roasted = 600L
Black = 625L





Posted 34 days ago.

testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


I don't know...I mean, I see what he's saying, but still...if that's true it should be really obvious in munching on the grains and it's not IME. Maybe I need to get a wider range of roast malts and munch on them though.

I did find it interesting that 550L Blackprinz was far more pleasant than carafa special I which is much lighter. That's why I've switched to using it over carafa.





Posted 34 days ago.

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