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You are here: Home --> Forum Home --> Brewing Forum --> Brewing Discussion --> Finished beer Ion content

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testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


So, I stumbled across this HBT thread where some dude sent Heady Topper off to by analyzed for ion content and got some interesting results:

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=481031

Potassium, K - 802
Calcium, Ca - 110
Magnesium, Mg - 113
Sulfate, SO4-S - 156
Chloride, Cl - 339

The interesting bit is the Chloride level. Seems insane, especially considering that a popular SO4:Cl ratio is 150:50.

Of course, some of those levels could be provided by ions in the malt.

So Martin Brungard enlightens later on:

Table 22.2 from Malting and Brewing Science reports the following inorganic components in beer.

K: 220 to 1100 ppm
Ca: 10 to 140 ppm
Mg: 34 to 250 ppm
SO4: 107 to 400 ppm
Cl: 143 to 984 ppm

So malt contributes significant Ca, Cl, and SO4 to the beer. Interesting.

Later in the thread someone has sent out their heady clone and provides their source water. Now we're getting somewhere!

He adds some absurd amount of SO4 (22g) only to the mash...shooting for 167 Ca total, and 362 SO4, or 300 Ca and 700 SO4 in the mash.

Then he ends up with:
SO4 - 282
Cl - 181

Woah. That's trippy. How do you add THAT MUCH SO4 and end up with that little?

Makes me wonder about Mike's Amber that he added some ludicrous amount of Gypsum and wins a gold.

Possibly there's some function of the mash that's stripping out SO4 even though it can be added by malt?

Weird. I'd be curious to see a beer made with RO profiled for SO4 and one made with my 150ppm level, and then compare with this one with 300+.

Maybe there's some maximum that can actually make it to the finished beer? If so, maybe we ought to rethink Gypsum additions? Also, what about Cl?

You guys are smart. What are your thoughts?




Posted 34 days ago.

Necropaw
Charter Member
Central WI
608 Posts


I wish i had won gold :(

I mean, i was kind of shooting in the dark with my additions, but i go back to the simple argument that Burton on Trent water has been working well for a shitload of time, and my levels werent even that high.




Posted 34 days ago.

KidMoxie
Charter Member
San Elijo Hills, CA
405 Posts


Maybe there's a lot getting left behind *in* the mash (like, stuck in a grain). A good test would be adding during boil vs all in mash.




Posted 34 days ago.

Necropaw
Charter Member
Central WI
608 Posts


A. Now youre changing your water profile quite a bit, though, which is going to effect mash pH, etc. hard to judge two beers that have been mashed under such different circumstances.

B. Not really sure if a mash can strip out salts like that? I guess i kinda assumed once they were dissolved properly it was tough to filter them out.

Unless of course by 'stripped out' you mean some sort of chemical reaction, which...at that point i have no fucking idea. Did i read somewhere that hard water leads to more beer scale? though how much of that is similar to hard water scale being left behind on plumbing? *shrug*.




Posted 34 days ago.

brulosopher
Charter Member
Fresno, CA
167 Posts


>A good test would be adding during boil vs all in mash.

:)




Posted 34 days ago.

testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


Don't tease us like that.

Also, I'll pay to have one of them sent to Ward if they are IPAs, assuming someone else will pick up the tab for the other one.





Posted 34 days ago.

brulosopher
Charter Member
Fresno, CA
167 Posts


I'll just have them put it on the Brlosophy tab, because as you know, I'm really raking it in :)

For reals thought, if I send them into Ward, I'll cover it.




Posted 34 days ago.

testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


What I'm saying is, send them to Ward. If you are on the fence about sending them, I have made a monetary offer to tip the scales. :)





Posted 34 days ago.

brulosopher
Charter Member
Fresno, CA
167 Posts


I DON'T NEED YOU MONEY!!!!!!!! YOU CANNOT BUY ME!!!!!!!!!

Unless the offer is right.




Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


I am going to bring this up with Colin Kaminski. After talking with Martin Brungard about this study at NHC - the  issue is that he raised is that the reagents and process Wards used will likely not be accurate when used in the presence of ethanol and some of the various organic acids present in finished beer. Ward is setup as an agricultural lab facility, not as a mass spec enabled tech lab. There are some labs that can do molecular analysis - looking to see if TA&M or KSU might have something. Mass Spec maybe too gross for analysis (ie. Sulfate/Suflur, etc.).

It maybe necessary to distill the beer sample and account for mineral concentration after.




Posted 34 days ago.

chino_brews
Charter Member
Eden Prairie, MN
301 Posts


Does White Labs do it?




Posted 34 days ago.

mchrispen
Bastrop, TX
485 Posts


I didn’t see any ‘big tech’ there when I visited, but since they do AA analysis, etc. maybe? I would suspect they farm that out to the university…

TA&M has a new gas spectro unit that can be tuned to specific wavelengths… it’s being used to analyze groundwater/fracking contamination (long story… oh Lubbock). 

FYI – Brungard even believes that a Ward report is only so-so accurate, but fine for home brewing. Especially when the cation/anion ration is below 0.25 (although he uses 0.50 in his literature since that seems to be the Ward’s standard). Almost never see that 0.25 resolution from them. 

That iDip thingy is barely in a 1.5 ratio (reagents with spectrophotometer). I am pretty unhappy with it – works well with my hot tub chemicals, but that is about it. After talking to them – it is a repurposed pool management tool. Apparently one of their engineers is a home brewer and thought “We can sell this to…” This is another topic to review with Colin – he was just given one to test.





Posted 34 days ago.

testingapril
Charter Member
Atlanta, GA
595 Posts


White labs has a GC.

Not sure if they do that sort of specific testing.





Posted 34 days ago.

uberg33k
Charter Member
The Internet
314 Posts


I brought this up like a year ago and it was mostly met with crickets.  I was thinking it would be more interesting for post fermentation adjustments to account for year to year variations in grain and hops.  I don't think you'd want to front load the additions too much ... you can always add salt to your meal, but you can never take it away.

It maybe necessary to distill the beer sample

Uh huh.  I see what you do there...




Posted 34 days ago.

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